Connecting the Pack

Abdullah Najjar 0:00
All right, everybody, you're listening to connecting the pack and this is your host Abdullah Najjar. In today's conversation, I'm going to be talking to Goga Kataladze. And Goga is a student from Georgia, not Atlanta, Georgia, but Georgia, the country.

And he is currently a student here at NC State University pursuing a master's degree in International Studies. Today, we'll try to talk about his his journey here in the United States as part of NC State University's MIS program, masters of International Studies. And we'll also try to talk about some of his experiences in Georgia. And without further ado, up, Goga. Welcome to the studio.

Goga Kataladze 0:55
Well, thank you very much for having me and for the opportunity to share my story. And yeah, I kind of liked your joke, a joke about Atlanta, Georgia, should be put forward.

Yeah. So yeah, my name is Goga. And as you mentioned, I'm doing my

I'm studying international relations and International Studies with a focus in international development. I was born in western Georgia, which is opposed to Georgia.

And not Atlanta, Georgia. No, no, definitely. It's it's far away from Atlanta. So, yeah, I mean,

Abdullah Najjar 1:42
West, we said Western. Yeah, it's the

Goga Kataladze 1:45
western part of, of Georgia, called a pas. It's a big kind of region of Georgia. So I was born closer to the, to the border. With the rest of the Georgia, it's kind of occupied. So it's occupied by by Russia.

Abdullah Najjar 2:02
So. So you, I like that you specified exactly where you were born and what the kind of situation is, like, in a way where it's not. It's not it doesn't have full autonomy, the region that you're you're part of. Is that an accurate assessment?

Goga Kataladze 2:23
Yes. Okay. It does not internationally. Oh, it's a self proclaimed state. So there is like a, like a long history behind upazila. And Silva said, Yeah, which is northern Georgia. So both of those territories are occupied by Russia currently. So we can we say like 20% of Georgia is occupied by Russia. So it all started in the nine, at the beginning of 90s, in 92, with the collapse of Soviet Union, and there was a tension between different ethnic minorities of, of Georgia, specifically, are setting and center positions. So there was a civil war that lasted for more than one year. And, you know, Russia kind of saw this whole situation unfolding. And they kind of intervened in the Civil War, which resulted in the loss of the Civil War by the central Georgian government, and a Pisceans declared the independence from the rest of the Georgia. And then, you know, in after decades later, in 2008, similar situation happened with Oceti, and South Ossetia, which is the northern Georgia, and Russia kind of invaded Georgia, in 2008, and officially occupied both territories. So Wow.

Abdullah Najjar 3:54
And you're, how old were you in 2008 when the invasion happened?

Goga Kataladze 3:59
So I was 10 years old. But I don't really remember a lot about, you know, the whole war situation, because, again, South Ossetia is a little bit far from a plaza. But I remember my family, you know, was packing up in staff to just not leave Georgia, we were kind of moving to the mountainous area of Georgia, because we were afraid that it would be, you know, full scale invasion Oh, into Georgia, like to an LA like to occupy the whole country, which was the intention of Medvedev at that time, but there were some pretty serious warnings sent by the United States and the bush government at that time, and they kind of backed up and they were satisfied with just occupation.

Abdullah Najjar 4:57
Oh, gosh. Do you remember How long you guys stayed in the mountains, like how

Goga Kataladze 5:06
we stayed there for a couple of months, even though the war itself lasted only five days, there is even a very interesting documentary on Netflix called five days of August. That's when the invasion was. And it's, it's filmed by like Hollywood. It was five days, but it was, it was a heinous crime. You know, against Georgia and, generally, I think against humanity whenever right and other country declares war. So it was it was tough. And I had friends who actually lived in northern parts of Georgia and, who actually witnessed the horrors of the war. So

Abdullah Najjar 5:50
yeah, wow. I'm sorry about your friends. And I'm glad that you didn't experience something similar, let's say,

Goga Kataladze 6:00
but it was kind of out of the health situation. But you know, as a kid, you're kind of still, you know, 10 year 10 year old person is still trying to figure out everything in life. So for me, it was like, I didn't realize what was going on. I knew there was a war. But, you know, it's just frightening anyway, like it, it still follows you your entire life, the sense of kind of insecurity and not feeling safe. And after the war, I still remained in Abkhazia for, you know, until I graduated from high school, so it was difficult. And

Abdullah Najjar 6:37
that would be an occupied territory.

Goga Kataladze 6:42
Yes. Wow, I was going to school in a panacea, which declared itself as independent state, so they kind of already hated Georgians. So there was hater there was discrimination. We were not allowed to speak Georgia at school. So I kind of got my education of high school. Fully, like in Russian,

Abdullah Najjar 7:06
in Russian, yes. Okay. So, so you, you as a Georgian, who spoke, Georgian, and I would probably guess before, I

Goga Kataladze 7:18
knew a little bit of Georgia, um, but you know, for I don't want to confuse your audience because it's a small country, but it has so many ethnic minorities and languages spoken. So my family is considered as, as an ethnic, if we describe them ethnically. So we kind of speak, which is a language that doesn't have an alphabet, but it's just, it's a spoken language. So that's the language was spoke in my family. So I did not have much access to the Georgian language itself, other than the TV. So my Georgian was pretty bad. But I was taught Georgian at school, but as a foreign language, oh, wow, just once a week, which is not enough to kind of, yeah, learn the language.

Abdullah Najjar 8:08
And so primarily, you would probably say that you have, you're more proficient in Russian than you are in Georgian.

Goga Kataladze 8:18
It is funny you say, because I was recently trying to talk in Russian with Lee, you know, some of the Russian for, you know, Fulbright students here at NC State and some other students. I think I'm kind of losing it a little bit, because I haven't spoken Russian for for a very long time. Because there is also you know, Georgians don't really like the whole political situation with Russia. So people boycott it in different ways, not speaking the language or like, and I don't have any problems with the language. I'm actually very happy. I speak and understand Russian, but you lose it because it's like, it's not like I spoke Russian since I was born. I did not I mean, it's just I went to school, and I was forced to learn history, math, and you know, geography, biology, everything in Russian. So I was good at it. And I think I'm still by like, it's been more than six years, I would say that I was not having full conversations in Russian.

Abdullah Najjar 9:21
So this is, so let me see. Let me break it down here a little bit, just so that I could make sure that I understand it. Yeah. For your throughout high school. You are learning Russian, two subjects were in Russian. Yes, everything was in Russian. And then after you graduate, you move out.

Goga Kataladze 9:42
Yeah, I leave the area. I leave the occupied part. I go to the central government of Georgia, like the territory which is controlled by the government of Georgia. So I moved to the capital city called Tbilisi, and I got admitted to the Tbilisi State University which is Shocking, because you know, it's one of the top universities in South Caucasus like yet involves Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia. So I was really excited and happy, I got admitted to that university. And I was studying political science in my undergrad and in Georgia, in

Abdullah Najjar 10:18
Georgia. And okay, so that must have been a huge transition day

Goga Kataladze 10:22
was a huge transition. But you know, there are people behind all that success. At my seventh grade of high school, since Georgian and was taught as a foreign language, my Georgian language teacher offered me some extra classes, but it was we did not declare it publicly, because she might get in trouble for you know, giving extra classes in Georgian. And then I would get in trouble for trying to attempt to learn the language. So I used to go to her house, every now and then. And it's like, you know, she would have books of Georgian literature and she would ask me to, like, read and memorize. And we used to play like, the, like a theatrical play of different Georgian novels. And I really learned a very good amount of Georgia and I even impressed so many people at my university when I was an undergrad, with the with the level of knowledge I had, and I didn't even have any, like an accent or anything. I was like, it looked like I grew up in the capital city.

Abdullah Najjar 11:27
That's, that's insane. Because you are actually from Georgia. But you were learning the language in secret.

Goga Kataladze 11:35
Yeah, that's true. Like, sometimes I feel like I should sit down and write a book.

Abdullah Najjar 11:40
Yeah, no, this is very fascinating. I mean, you you go through high school, and you're learning Russian, then you jump, you know, you graduate, you go to college, you're now going back to your roots and sort of learning the subjects are being taught in Georgian. And, and there's you ever when you encounter you know, when you have different encounters of different people, would you reveal that part of your life? Or was it always kept under wraps?

Goga Kataladze 12:13
So I actually consider myself a little bit humble person, I don't really talk much about myself if, unless someone really asks me about my life. And then I'm like, there is a very good story behind me. I mean, I should be speaking about it. Yes, I would actually like, you know, when people would ask me where you're from, like Georgian ask you like, I would say and then Georgians get curious because they do not have this the access to the and territory and they are interested what is going on there after the Civil War? So then I would say a little bit but you know, many of those people wouldn't really know about my journey with the Georgian language, my journey with you know, being little bit humiliated of you know, being Georgian or, and same goes to the English language. I was. I wouldn't really touch on those things, but I would discuss it with people I would get close to. Yeah.

Abdullah Najjar 13:15
So you spent four years in the in the capital, Tbilisi. Yes. Yeah. So four years there? What would, how would you characterize those four years? I mean, it must have been life changing in a way.

Goga Kataladze 13:30
it was life changing. So, you know, people are different. But in my undergrad at Tbilisi State University, there were some people who, you know, people born in the, in the capital city. Sometimes when they look at the students who come from other parts of Georgia, from you know, regional parts, there is a stereotype that we don't have the same level of professionalism or whatever they access to the resources, etc. So they look at you a little bit like, down or whatever. They're like, Oh, well, and honestly, not only my friends, but even my mom, when I was applying for Tbilisi State University. My mom was like, oh, you know, just apply for some smaller university because, you know, people there might be too fancy or too bougie for you. And she was scared because I was growing up. I was a pretty shy person. So she was afraid that I would be lost. But the first year was tough. But after the first year, I actually picked up on many things, and I was one of the top students at the Tbilisi State University I graduated with with honors so

Abdullah Najjar 14:40
Wow, congratulations, that is such a huge, huge milestone. I

Goga Kataladze 14:46
know. I know. I did not expect that but you know, I I really worked hard. I work hard not only just for myself, but for my family and for the for the region. I was coming From just to prove the point that, yeah, I might not have access to computer to books to modern resources as you guys had cuz I was in the isolated town, but I still made it. So, yeah, I guess that was the whole point of me spending nights on reading and studying and everything. So that

Abdullah Najjar 15:19
is that it's incredible. I mean, I couldn't even imagine what it must have been like to be in some, you know, in isolation, if I could characterize it as such. Yeah. And then transition into huge city with, you know, different maybe culture, obviously different way speaking. And you know, just being on your own. I'm sure your family didn't even transition with you. Right? You're

Goga Kataladze 15:46
no my mom still lives in. Oh, wow, she's still there. Yeah, because everyone is there all my family members, it's only me and my sister who moved to Tbilisi, again, because I could stay, I could stay in a place and there is a another story of like, so it's, it's just if I stayed in Georgia and I would not be able to find any job that I would want to pursue, because I am Georgia. And I would never be given a higher tier job like I would not have never got a good job. But despite despite me being Georgia, and I always had respect to Abkhazia because, you know, Georgians made some mistakes too. And Abkhazia made some mistakes, too. So I still had respect to them. Throughout the high school, I was trying to learn Abkhazia and Abkhazia language. And a bit despite being Georgia and I still graduated the high school also with honors grad, and they kind of wanted me to like stay in Abkhazia. So they offered me a scholarship to go to Moscow, to Moscow State University and to study there and then come back to Abkhazia and kind of work for a plaza. But if I have done that, that is kind of a betrayal to Georgians. So that is why I didn't stay in Abkhazia and my sister didn't stay. So we moved to Tbilisi, but my all my family members stayed in a plaza. Wow.

Abdullah Najjar 17:23
And, you know, in none of the things we we discussed so far. And none of these things. Did you mention English language? And where you'll learn how to speak English? Yes, this is like, How did that even happen? Like, what's the story? There

Goga Kataladze 17:40
is a very, I will I will be brief about this. But so I was always kind of interested in English language. And one of the reasons is that when countries are occupied, isolated in a conflict situation, you know, the United Nations is the one that kind of enters into those territories or tries to negotiate whatever terms between the parties. So as a kid, I remember there were a lot of UN cars moving around the town. So I got curious about the English language. But again, I didn't have access to the resource. I was learning English at school. But English was taught more as a science than as a language. Okay, every single grammar rule would be described in Russian to me, and I would be like, Okay, that makes sense. But like, we would never practice to speak English. So I used to, like, collect some random books, because because of the Civil War and everything, there were a lot of abandoned houses. And there were some books that survived the whole conflict. Yeah. And they were very old Soviet Union English books that I used to collect, and bring them home. And then I used to memorize, I used to memorize everything, like the texts. If I heard anything, someone speaking, I would practice it like over and over again. And then I needed people to talk to in English, but there were not many people who in Abkhazia I could do that. Except un. Wow. What I would do is that I would go sometimes alone sometimes with my grandmother because I was still a kid. And I was shy, as I said, so she would help me to like go to the UN houses, and we would just knock on the door. And then I would just ask if if anyone would want to speak with me in English. And honestly, I never received any like no's. I anyway, everyone was open. And I practiced a lot. And then during my last year in high school, one of the UN agencies actually hired me as a translator from English to Russian for for someone from Spain, they hired to do some research in Abkhazia. Yeah, so, yeah, that that's my English language journey.

Abdullah Najjar 20:06
That's way more oh my gosh, my life is way more exciting than how I learned English or even whatever upbringing I had when I was

Goga Kataladze 20:19
really young, because you have a very, very good pronunciation.

Abdullah Najjar 20:24
I probably wouldn't get. I mean, that's me. Well, thank you. Yeah, I mean, my story is just that, you know, it's very, very kind of simple in a way where I just exposed myself to movies in Hollywood at an early age. And yeah, I just, I would mimic everything I hear. Yeah. And so over the years, you know, my English evolved of all similar to

Goga Kataladze 20:49
mine, I mean, mimicking and learning and writing down, you know, later when I got computer and access to internet after you know, leaving Georgia, that's, that's how I practice more and more watching movies, or listening to songs and memorizing lyrics, you know, all of those things. So wow, that's exciting. But I knew I knew that I wouldn't survive in the capital city during my undergrad if I didn't pick up English because my dream was to go abroad. Oh,

Abdullah Najjar 21:17
so you had that dream? Yes. Okay. When did when did that become like a real like? Well, it became a reality when he showed up here, obviously, but. Yeah, but when did you first start dreaming about it? Maybe

Goga Kataladze 21:30
I was dreaming about going abroad. Since I was a kid. I always wanted to see the other side of the world. I guess, when you're isolated, you kind of you're kind of like a curious kid, like what is happening out there. So my first ever travel was like a two week conference. It was about like peace, peace building and conflict resolution. I mean, I was coming from a town like the area that was conflict affected. So I was interested in like, conflict resolutions, peaceful dialogues. So I went to, during my undergrad, that's where all my travel journey started. The first country was France. That's where I went. And it was very, very difficult for me, because I saw so many, like international students, professionals, and it was a training and I loved it. I was there. And I made so many friends. And with most of them, I still I'm still in touch. One of them is even my best friend. So I loved it so much that I was like, Okay, I will keep traveling. There are scholarships, you know, grants trainings I could apply for Yeah. And since Georgia, geographically is considered Europe, even though you know, people try to argue with Asia, whatever. But it's considered Europe, the European Commission would provide a lot of full scholarships that I would keep applying for. And with those scholarships, like I went to other countries like Armenia, Germany, Turkey, so like many, many other countries, but all of this was like a short term trainings. Yeah, but it would help me with my English, and it would help me with my skills. So what I did is I wanted something long term. And my dream country was the United States hurray. Yeah, even my high school graduation, we have a tradition to wear a shirt and print something that like resonates with our personality. And what I had in my shirt was the United States flag. Which is funny, because, you know, in Abkhazia, which is occupied by Russia, people don't really like the idea, the whole idea behind the United States. And I like, I realized it later why I did that. But you know, I just recently found that picture of me with the American flag, Oh, my. But you know, it's funny. You know, to come to the United States, it's not easy. Like most of the programs have a lot of requirements, like you can't just be like, I'm a student with a 4.0, GPA, like that doesn't matter. Like you have to do something other than studying, like, being involved in activities. So that's why I was traveling so much. And doing projects and working for nonprofits as a volunteer to be like, Yeah, you know, I can do something other than just being a nerd, whatever. So the first program that I wanted to apply to was the U grad program, which is, which is sponsored by the US State Department. It's an exchange program for the undergrads to go to the United States for a semester. Oh, wow. I applied for it. I got into the interview stage, and then I received rejection. And I was very, very disappointed. But I also knew that my English wasn't good enough, maybe I don't know, maybe I didn't have enough to show for. Because so many people apply for that scholarship. So I had to stand out somehow. So I started preparing myself for the next, like, you know, next route when they would announce it. But, but at the time, when I was already applying for the new, like, the road of this new grad program, I was in Armenia, Yerevan attending training for a week. And I'm filling out the application. And I suddenly received an email from the US Embassy in Georgia saying, you know, we received an extra funding from the State Department, would you like to go to the United States? Wow. And I was like, what it was, it was shocking to me, because, you know, I already gave up. It's like, a new, new application, they are accepting new applications. And I'm like, Yes, I, honestly, when I received that email, I was so shocked that I clicked on, like, archive the email or something. And the email just disappeared. And I was like, was it just a dream and illusion, then we just, I just found it. But I received an email in like, late November, and they wanted me to be in the United States by the beginning of January. So I, you know, I had to pass the TOEFL test. That was the only requirement actually. But we did it. I made it. I was studying, I went to the US and I was in Detroit, Michigan, I was studying at Wayne State University for a semester. Interesting. And it was, it was really, really great to be there. And to get the sense of kind of the taste of the American education. I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed Detroit. As a side note, I think it's a pretty underrated place. It was really, really cool to be there. I met so many friends. And while being there, I applied for the Erasmus program, which is a European Commission program between kind of European countries to exchange students. So that's also like for one semester, and I applied, I got accepted. And after the United States, I went to Dublin, Ireland, and I'm studying at the University College Dublin for another semester. So that's a great university. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that's how I made it to the long term things, but it was, you know, it was all building up my life for something bigger. Yeah. Which I am part of right now.

Abdullah Najjar 27:41
And this would be a Fulbright program. Congratulations. Wow. So what's so all you went through all of these different experiences? Now? We're at the stage of of you being part of the prestigious Fulbright program. What was what was How did that start the application? And you know, the interest in the program?

Goga Kataladze 28:03
Yeah, so I came from all these programs, I still kept going to conferences and trainings and doing some voluntary like activities, or nonprofits, and graduated from the State University. And then I started to work because I kind of wanted some professional experience as well. So I was working for the FAO, un, which is a Food and Agriculture Organization. And I was assigned the portfolio for Abkhazia. And I was really excited to work for my region for my people. And I was working for them for almost two years. Wow. And honestly, I wanted to work for them for a little bit longer. So the Fulbright thing was delayed by me, but my friends, and decided otherwise they were like, oh, no, you should try. You should try it now. Because the application process takes almost one year. Yeah, so I listened to them. But again, I didn't have much hopes because it is pretty competitive. Like you really need to have a research vision, you really need to have a good, you know, everything you need to be really good. And I know so many Georgians who apply for that. And many of them are really amazing, like in their field. And I don't know I sometimes I just felt like I was under estimating myself. I'm like, I do have something to like really show off now. So I applied for it with no hope so honestly, I forgot that I applied for it. And like in in two months, I received an email inviting me for an interview. Interview. During the interview, actually, my grandmother got sick, so I was kind of upset and worried so I kind of wanted to miss the interview. But again, I was pushed by people who surrounded me which I'm thankful for you I was a little nervous during the interview, but I made it. It was, you know, after a week after the interview, they emailed me that I was a semifinalist of the Fulbright Program. That's good. So basically, semi finalist means you are basically a finalist. But you know, the final decision would be made in the United States here. I would say it's New York or DC, but, I might be wrong about that. So basically, if the universities will not accept you, here, the Fulbright will be like, sorry, we wanted to find you. But the universities did not really accept you. So they based so during this process, it's a very long process. So after you are announced, semifinalist, you pass the tests of TOEFL and GRE. Yeah, so there might be other tests for other fields. But for for me, it was GRE and TOEFL. And after those tests, that's it. It's a silence for seven to eight months,

Abdullah Najjar 31:01
seven to eight. Yes, so

Goga Kataladze 31:04
those things happen, like in November or something, or even in October, I think I finished everything by the end of October, and the results come closer to May. That's when I received the final information. And during this time, you know, you you kind of receive emails from the university saying thank you for your application, because the the institution that works with Fulbright students applies on behalf of you. They create an email for you and everything. So that's how they apply. I don't know what's the process is I think it's too complicated. But I used to receive some random emails from like, I don't know, a university from Colorado. And I'm like,

Abdullah Najjar 31:45
I didn't apply there.

Goga Kataladze 31:48
Exactly but in May, in May, I received an email that I was officially admitted to NC State for the International Studies program. Congratulations.

Abdullah Najjar 31:58
Thank you. And now you're in your second year.

Goga Kataladze 32:02
Yeah, I'm actually graduating in two two months. Well, very soon. When I'm graduating. I'm already closing the program.

Abdullah Najjar 32:14
Oh, my gosh, how does that feel?

Goga Kataladze 32:17
Honestly, I can't I can't believe I think it's just you know, time passed so quickly. Even though it's been two years. I didn't realize how quickly the time passed. Honestly, I'm excited at the same time, a little bit scared for the future. Because as of now, like, I don't really know what I'm going to do in Georgia, because I'm not staying here. But my intuition and my heart is telling me that I should go back and see my family because I haven't seen them for almost two years. And then let's say I don't know. Yeah, I hope everything will be good. I mean like the sacrifice so many things for Fulbright. And I really, really worked hard. With my education here. It was still challenging, you know, as a foreigner to get to receive an education in like, a foreign language up, but I think I did a good job. I don't know you should ask my advisor.

Abdullah Najjar 33:16
No, I'm, I firmly believe you did do a great job. Your record speaks for itself. And I'm confident that even when you go back to Georgia, if you go back to Georgia, you'll do great things.

Goga Kataladze 33:27
I hope so. But yeah, that is my plan. And honestly, I'm, I'm really grateful for the program and for NC State. When I was coming here, I didn't know what NC State was and like, but it turned out to be a really great university with the great department, like the faculty members to professors, everyone is very supportive. And same goes to students, like my classmates, like everyone is just supportive. So yeah, which is something you don't really expect, like there are so many stereotypes generally about the United States. Oh, God, how to make friends. Yeah, but I think everything worked out really, really well. I had access to resources. If I needed any support and help, I could always ask for it.

Abdullah Najjar 34:15
Well, I'm very glad that, you know, you made the decision showing up here and I'm glad you experience such wonderful memories, you know, the professor's with the NC State in the US. That's just it's incredible. Something to be grateful for.

Goga Kataladze 34:32
Yeah, exactly. You know, it's it's always important that you you have the sense of belonging, and you are like you're not alone. That was the most important thing I was asking for that I would not feel alone with my problems with my thoughts. And, you know, yeah, there were times when I was really feeling alone. But if I were to ask for help, I'm sure I would receive a help. And my professors were going beyond academia. They were like, you know, we can talk about personal life, we can talk about anything. So that's kind of what made it feel like home. And I'm really happy. I can call North Carolina and NC State a home. So yeah.

Abdullah Najjar 35:18
Well, that was thank you for taking me walking me through your journey from the beginning. No, that was wonderful. And I'm really, I really enjoyed this conversation. Goga thank you so much for joining me.

Goga Kataladze 35:33
I enjoyed it too. And thank you very much for having me and hearing me.

Abdullah Najjar 35:37
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Goga Kataladze 35:39
Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai